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graphic Ethical Egoism graphic
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whiteypoker
Junior Otaku



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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject: Ethical Egoism

We are all ethical egoist. By this I mean that the only reason you do an actoin is because it best suits your desires or gives you personal gain.

Does...cough..anybody disagree? Very Happy

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BWS-1
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:40 am    Post subject:

I can't say I disagree, but I can tell you I likely misunderstand what you say.

So ... no matter who we are, what our beliefs are, what we think is ''right'' or ''wrong'' ... when it all comes down to being ourselves, it means it's in the purpose of ''gaining'' something to ourself OR what we believe is good? Say, a soldier that would dedicate his life for what he thinks is a right cause and would be ready to go die on the front line without any second thoughts, that would STILL be egoist of him to do so?

I'm asking 'cause, forgive my ignorance or possible misconception of things, I always thought being egoistic meant not caring about others, and have your personnal needs as higher priorities then the ones of other people. And that even in times of which one could offer assistance to other people in need without ending up ''losing'' anything, one wouldn't offer assistance because he'd tell himself that he wouldn't ''gain'' anything from it.

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Therin
Gloompf. Iggle!



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:56 am    Post subject:

Maybe the soldier was ready to die in battle for the sake of glory, in which case, he is an egoist.

On the other hand, chances are a man who is willing to dedicate his life to a cause is doing it for the sake of retribution, or absolution, or any number of reasons the desire for which is a direct result of something that happened to him earlier in his life. For example, Frank Castle, aka The Punisher, while he is a hero, is also an egoist, because he isn't murdering criminals for the sake of anyone but himself. By the same token, it is thought that the metaphorical "good samaritan" performs his or her good deeds, not for the sake of being good in and of itself, but because these good deed will garner them something in the future; debt, admiration, compensation w/ interest, and so on down the list.

To put it simply, it's not as simple as just not caring about anyone but yourself. You care about others, or about a cause, because you percieve these things to have a direct effect upon yourself.

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Silver Adept
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:37 am    Post subject:

Well, if you extend that idea out far enough that even if the only thing we get out of it is good feelings, we still do it for ourselves because we'll feel good, then we're probably all egoists, even the altruists who do it simply because they feel good doing it.

That's a rather pessimistic view of humanity. I don't think that people do all the good that they do after calculating things down to the last good feeling. Some people do calculate things like cost versus effectiveness and such, but then there are the times where we simply do something good for someone else because we feel like it. I'd say that's not egoism.

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whiteypoker
Junior Otaku



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject:

Altruism, like superman, is dead, not to mention they didn't exist in the first place. Devil

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Therin
Gloompf. Iggle!



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:39 pm    Post subject:

Silver Adept wrote:
Well, if you extend that idea out far enough that even if the only thing we get out of it is good feelings, we still do it for ourselves because we'll feel good, then we're probably all egoists, even the altruists who do it simply because they feel good doing it.

That's a rather pessimistic view of humanity. I don't think that people do all the good that they do after calculating things down to the last good feeling. Some people do calculate things like cost versus effectiveness and such, but then there are the times where we simply do something good for someone else because we feel like it. I'd say that's not egoism.


Well, I think it depends. I mean, no, we don't go around calculating everything out consciously, but some part of you knows from experience what will probably happen given a certain set of circumstances. Like throwing a ball. How do you know how hard to throw it?

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Graillik Tur
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:38 pm    Post subject:

Forget arguing this point, it's a circle. Things just go around and around. There is nothing to base anything off of in the model, it's just a continuous change. No values set, just what is right in the moment. And again we get back into right and wrong and whether it does exist. Look for my new Ebook coming out soon, cause I have to do it.

Salut.

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Tobias
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethical Egoism

whiteypoker wrote:
We are all ethical egoist. By this I mean that the only reason you do an actoin is because it best suits your desires or gives you personal gain.

Does...cough..anybody disagree? Very Happy


And thus, this reason was what Paul was trying to show the world when he wrote his letters in the bible. But lets keep this off of religion Razz

For the most part, this argument, as graillik mentioned, is just gonna be a circle, between the absolutists and the relativists. If you try to Justify a supreme norm, as in Hosper's dialogue on Relativity, you are going to inevitablly going to find that you cannot justify it, for justifying it would mean that it isnt supreme, since something else can describe it.

Instead of all of this arguing and vindicating of beliefs, lets just say that we do what we feel is right in our own selves, and that the only thing we are capable of doing is believing.

*explodes*

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shadokastur
Patience to see and strength to do. That is all.



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:21 am    Post subject:

I'd say it's like an internal chain of command that dictates how we act/react. Like what do we hold to be most important? Family? Then the needs of family come first (obviously to a certain degree, decided subjectively). etc... This theory might begin to explain the dynamics of the Fight or Flight reaction. Maybe in it's basics.

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whiteypoker
Junior Otaku



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:57 am    Post subject:

Ethical egoism needs no justification just as you need no justification for why DNA is shaped like a double helix. It just is; a natural law if you will. I'm not debating whether or not ethical egoism exists. I'm stating it as a natural law. Shadokastur is on the right track by saying its in the basics. Its in human nature. One believes what is ethical that which is ethical for himself. Even ethical tollerance is believeing what is ethical for yourself because you value tolerance.

The set of values is personal, though right now, if you're an American, they are also based on our laws. Ethics in their entireties are based on what's right for the moment in the sense that most ethical schools of thought allow for some flexibilty. They all have universalities, though they allow flexibilty for the situation.

morons...sorry I have to keep up my reputation for railroading Devil

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