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PC and the simplicity of it all. |
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ScrumYummy
bunnyhunches of scrums
Gender: 
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 |
 Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:34 pm Post subject: |
| BWS-1 wrote: |
I have no idea how you girls can cope with all that crap <_<
I mean the ''damaging to some degree'' would have to be the damage caused by my fist to their face, or my foot to their ass if I was a girl. So I'm glad I'm not a girl. That being said, kudos to all of you for surviving in this world of primates.
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That's the thing, though. I'd already talked to the managers about it, and about what I could do when it happened. They told me not to do anything because it might offend the customer. So as angry and insulted as I felt, there was nothing I could do.
| BWS-1 wrote: |
Crap, I think that previous sentence was a bit sexist towards men. Well let me clarify that by ''world of primates'' I mean those men whos mind isn't ''evolved'' enough to know how things are today, the men that still think a girl isn't good at 75% of all jobs just simply because they label them as ''man's job''. The poor souls, they must be very afraid in the world they live in nowdays. Wish they'd understand and feel sorry for all the stabbing they deliver to the world, sometime without truely meaning it, simply out of ''what they were thought was right and unchangeble'' you know having your grand-mother, mother and perhaps every aunt in the family being a ''typical 1800 women'' doesn't help in building an idea of how ''things should be'' according to ... *ahem* ''tradition'' >_> sucks yeah. Here's an article about the history of women. I was suprised to see how far away back people started considering women as ''the weaker sex'' or simply as anything but vile fiends :p. |
Lol. Well, I will say this--outside of the situations I described (working in a computer store, going into gamestores with my husband) I never really experience discrimination. Guys open doors for me sometimes; it's really nice of them, but they're probably the same guys that would have asked for the male associate in the computer store. "Ladies first," "women and children first," "never hit a lady," as nice as all of these things are, they're technically discrimination; a guy wouldn't hold a door for another guy. So it's kind of a double-edged sword.
And thank you for linking to that article =D It was a very good read. I especially liked the following:
| WIC wrote: |
Women were long considered naturally weaker than men, squeamish, and unable to perform work requiring muscular or intellectual development. In most preindustrial societies, for example, domestic chores were relegated to women, leaving "heavier" labor such as hunting and plowing to men. This ignored the fact that caring for children and doing such tasks as milking cows and washing clothes also required heavy, sustained labor. But physiological tests now suggest that women have a greater tolerance for pain, and statistics reveal that women live longer and are more resistant to many diseases.
Maternity, the natural biological role of women, has traditionally been regarded as their major social role as well. The resulting stereotype that "a woman's place is in the home" has largely determined the ways in which women have expressed themselves. Today, contraception and, in some areas, legalized abortion have given women greater control over the number of children they will bear. Although these developments have freed women for roles other than motherhood, the cultural pressure for women to become wives and mothers still prevents many talented women from finishing college or pursuing careers.
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And I'll admit it. I do most of the cooking and cleaning. But you know what? I kind of enjoy it. I don't find it as a form of discrimination. I do it because I'm afraid my husband will mess something up 
| BWS-1 wrote: | | I might be wrong, but the 2 times I've watched that show, never have I seen a single white guy or birl being arrested there. And most of all cops were white. Coincidence? |
I hate to use Micheal Moore as an example (because he's somewhat of a kook), but he went into the offices at Fox and asked them the same question. And they told him no, it's not a coincidence. The demographics of the people that watch COPS would rather see a white guy beating up on a black guy. Fox knows this, which is why they make the show the way they do--to make money.
| Silver Adept wrote: | | Whatever happens to the idea that one should treat people as people, "not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character"? |
Amen to that. But it doesn't help when people are doing the damage to themselves by feeding a stereotype or believing in them.
| Andsectoid wrote: |
LOL. That is one of the reasons I like dating gamer chicks. They will got to the store and talk to the clerk and he will start looking and talking to me. I loved to say, "Don't look at me. She is the gamer. I don't know crap about it."
When it happens you should make a comment. Help them to realize what they are doing.
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! You are my hero. =D
Well, part of my problem is that I've gotten so used to it that I've just started ignoring it. Which I shouldn't do--I should make them realize what they're doing, as you said. Sometimes, I do, to an extent--I'll talk to them in a way that let's them know "You should be talking to me, not him." But not often enough. =)
When my mom was buying a house, the subject came up somehow that I worked on computers. The realtor (a women) used to sell mechanical equipment (of some sort, I don't remember what), and she was well familiar with the type of discrimination that I experienced at M3. She told me that when people questioned what I knew about computers, talk over their heads. Bring them to the reality that I knew what I was doing. And sometimes, it worked =D But in some situations, I couldn't even try it. And I can't imagine how I would put that to use at a game store =\ So there are just some situations where there is nothing you can do. |
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Terin
Huzzah!
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Joined: 27 Oct 2003 |
| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: |
Wow Scrum, I'm sorry. I guess being a guy I don't really realize how prevalent sexism is, I'm not really exposed to it or racism, so I have to go off of what society portrays. Another reason I didn't rant about sexism is that it hasn't "swung to the other degree" like racism is, but you're right, it still needs to be addressed. I really can't make any good points to or against it, since I haven't really seen it. (Maybe I just haven't lived in a place where it is prevalent) Could you (and anyone else) help me out by hooking this thread up with your thoughts (any that hasn't been previsouly stated  ) Thanks!
-T
PS- For the record I hold open the door for everyone. (not my car door though, if that's what you mean. But building doors, yeah.) |
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Shandriz
Your Death Shall be Swift
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Joined: 28 Sep 2003 |
| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
^_^ Well, I do happen to know a few guys who hold doors for other guys. It's really a matter of courtesy, especially down here in the "good 'ol south". Though they are infinitely -more- likely to open the door for a woman than a man, I know for a fact that there are many that just hold the door open for whomever needs to go in, not mattering whom it was.
I know that I, for one, tend to hold the door open for everyone under the sun. Especially at work, though that tends to be more because I can sympathize with the poor parents trying to drag their kids in (both male and female parents, btw) and hold the door open, put in the code for the second door, hold that open, try to keep the kids from darting on ahead, etc.
I've never really experienced your variety of sexism, but I have suffered it in another fashion, I guess. Every female and male has.
And here is where Shan draws on the love she found in her psychology class. <3 Therin and Girkon and I actually talked about this once.
Females are females. When you are a young child (I'm talking toddler - about six, when you can start really making decisions for yourself) you tend to act more like your gender. No matter how your parents try to treat you the same as your brother, they -will- treat you like a little girl. It's engrained in our blood. Girls will be more inclined to play with dolls than boys are, and will be less inclined to play with trucks. They will also be more encouraged to do such.
Because of this, we grow up with completely different outlooks on life. Girls talk about *digs for the word* ...uh, I can't remember the exact terminology, but they're more inclined to talk about people than things. That is, more social than objective.
Because of -this-, girls are, more often than not, more suited to different sorts of work than guys. These lines of work are more along the sort that they've been doing for centuries-- mothering taken in different lights (such as being a teacher, veterinarian, nurse, anything that requires people skills) . And Guys with their 'leading' and 'fixing things' and 'building things'. Therefore, it is deep within our psychology that girls simply are less able to do things that are generally considered boy things. Boys are more likely to be interested in video games, girls are more likely to be interested in things that require direct dealings with actual human beings.
It is -hard- to get over this. -Really- hard. Even on a personal scale. I always say that I had no personality until I moved here to GA, when I decided I stood against just about everything the stereotypes of GA stood for (White Southern Baptist Conservatism, if you will) . This isn't entirely true. Until then, I simply did what was expected of me as a female. I did my homework, I played with my dolls, and occasionally I got a little scandalous and watched Ninja turtles or played Super Mario Brothers 3. Admittedly, I was a bit envious of the guys playing with their trucks, but I was content to stay within the niche that centuries of human development had carved out for me.
I was listening to the radio once a while back, and they mentioned a few interesting things-- all of this sexism is rooted back to the ancient caveman days, where survival marked out our behaviours. Women -are-, unless they take measures to ensure otherwise and the opposite sex does not, physically weaker than men. It's just the way they were created, take it up with Evolution (or God, whichever you prefer) if you have a problem with that. In the caveman days, they made noise and talked loudly a lot to scare away predators. Staying in groups was safer for them. Men, not so much, as they had the physical strength to deter predators without such.
Point is, it's only been a very short time that men have been encouraged to even -try- to see women in a different light. It's going to take a -long- time for intelligence to outweigh instinct. |
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ScrumYummy
bunnyhunches of scrums
Gender:
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 |
| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: |
I see your point. I grew up in a house with three brothers, one of which is a computer guru, so gaming and computers "rubbed off on me," so to speak. I can imagine that in a house full of sports fans, a girl would grow up to be an athlete, and she would probably have just as much trouble as I did in the computer field.
I just think that people ignore it, accept it, and try to forget about it, when in some cases, they honestly shouldn't. It gets swept under the rug, expecially when it should be brought out into the open.
I also think that gender roles are important...but in a way that something should always be filling that role, not necessarily a man or a woman. In other words, I think there should always be a mother figure and a father figure present, but if you're a single father that can carry out both roles, more power to you. Or, there should always be computer retail and video game retail associates that can help customers, but it shouldn't matter whether they are female or male, or whether their customers are female or male--they are there to provide a service, not to alienate, or even hit on the customer/associate (I have never deemed that sort of behaviour appropriate at work).
Anyway. Good post, Shan =)
| Terin wrote: | | Wow Scrum, I'm sorry. I guess being a guy I don't really realize how prevalent sexism is, I'm not really exposed to it or racism, so I have to go off of what society portrays. Another reason I didn't rant about sexism is that it hasn't "swung to the other degree" like racism is, but you're right, it still needs to be addressed. I really can't make any good points to or against it, since I haven't really seen it. (Maybe I just haven't lived in a place where it is prevalent) |
The store that I worked at was in Jonesboro, Arkansas. I used to think that maybe it was just that place, but after moving to Portland, and shopping for video games, and being ignored by the male associates when I'm with my husband--it made me realize that stereotyping and sexism is probably everywhere. Even in a "leftist" major city like Portland.
And thinking about what you said, that you go off of what society portrays--it really says a lot about how society likes to forget that sexism even exists. Which is why it is still a problem.
| Terin wrote: |
PS- For the record I hold open the door for everyone. (not my car door though, if that's what you mean. But building doors, yeah.) |
LOL. It's awesome that that's become part of the topic. I hold doors for everyone, too =) Unless I'm not paying attention. And than it's an accident. X)!
But I will say this--there are a lot more guys that open doors for me than girls I mean, if they just hold it open, then turn and go about their way, it means they're just being nice. But there are some guys that get kind of creepy about it. They'll open the door in a flourishing motion, with hand gestures, or they'll say something like "After you!" "Here you go!" "Ladies first!" and it kind of creeps me out I'm sure the majority of them mean well, but at least one or two of them have had looks on their faces that made it really look like they were picturing me in a sexual way. And like I said, it's a major minority, so it's not exactly sexism. But there's a very fine line there, I think X)! |
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Tobias
*explodes*
Age: 38
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Joined: 17 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:02 am Post subject: |
well, after reading your story, and reading a bit of the posts, i feel inclined to add to the history of sexism. This is probably one of the big things we talked about in Greek Civilization class, since most of the class is about men, and as soon as you touch upon women, it becomes a whole different (and quite frankly, really sad) story.
Women were portrayed as slaves or child-bearers then. They lived in the house, and became pale, and rarely went outside unless if they were going to go to a symposium as a practical prostitue (which was very commonplace). Additionally, most Greek structures (including on the Parthenon) have on their metopes (the reliefs inbetween the top of the pillars around most Greek structures) a basic relief of the Athenians fighting and winning against the Amazons. This was done because it shows the one case when women were portrayed as equals to the men, yet the men still defeated them. If anything, it definitely forces the women back into that role.
As Shan said...its only been recently that the woman has been affirmed that equal role amongst men, and its gonna take some time. After reading everything in this article, im looking more and more forward to the complete equality of men and women.
That is all
PS: I hold the door open for everyone...its when people dont hold it open for me that i yell at em  |
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reaper
I miss you Shar
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Joined: 28 Dec 2002 |
| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject: |
I don't feel like seriously debating since most of my points have been made lol so..
Over all Black men don't have it too bad in america, definetly not since girls have gone cuckoo for coco nuts  |
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Girkon
Chop Chop Fiend
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Joined: 29 Sep 2004 |
| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject: |
hehe and in the greater scheme of things the sexism and racism here can pale to how other countries act towards similar thoughts. The old world style of living is prevelant in places like the middle east for the most part. It's not just an isolated incident in the world stage. |
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Satine
Evil Onigiri
Age: 37
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Joined: 29 Sep 2004 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
I have quite a bit more experience with sexism than racism, being that I'm a white female. I first experienced it when I was back in elementary school. Somehow we came up with this game where the guys would "capture" the girls and put them in "prison" (sitting on a rock in our recess area). Whenever I was "captured", I'd always try to break loose or break out of "prison". My classmates would tell me "You're not supposed to do that!" and I replied "But I don't want to be captured!" Just because I'm female does not mean males can dominate me.
I also remember a high school history class. We were having a pretty lively discussion about something, and I was speaking. One of the boys then interrupted me and when I tried to continue, he just kept speaking louder and louder until I turned to him and said "Excuse me, but I am speaking. Would you please stop interrupting me?!" Which shut him up for about 2 minutes before he did it again. Just because I'm female does not mean I can't have an opinion. You may not like it either. But I'm just as entitled to one as you are.
My brother is 13, and he thinks I don't know anything. According to him, I'm stupid because I "don't do anything". I don't have to necessarily do things to know about them; I learn by observing. Just because I'm female does not mean I'm not intelligent. My friends (many of whom are female) would have philosophical discussions during lunch.
When I was deciding what I wanted to major in in college and people would ask me what I wanted to do, I would say that I was considering teaching music. Their reply would almost invariably be "But you're so smart! You could do anything!" I would tell them, "Yes, but I want to teach." Teaching is traditionally a women's job, and still isn't considered a true profession. Teachers get nowhere near the respect that doctors and lawyers do. Some say "Those who can't do, teach." I'd like to see them handle a classroom full of rowdy kids and teach them how to read music. But I digress.
I'm one of those people who holds the door for everyone. It's how I was raised, and to me it's just good manners. I'm grateful when others do the same for me, though some men are prone to leering as I walk by. They get a glare that says "I am not a sex object. Don't look at me like one." Likewise, walking downtown I sometimes get comments like "Hey gorgeous!" or "It's about time a beautiful woman walked by!" from men passing by. Comments like that I don't really mind; sometimes they make me feel good. It gets annoying though, and some men give me a look that says they're imagining me naked. However, when I hear "I'd like a piece of that ass!" or "Look at that rack!" I take severe offense. I am more than my butt or my breasts! I may be a sexual being, but I am not a sex object and I will not be treated as such. |
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reaper
I miss you Shar
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Joined: 28 Dec 2002 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:21 pm Post subject: |
ok I'll just say this as well as i cant type on a laptop lol.
Any way men and women should not be treated as equals honistly. because to treat equally means you would treat a woman the EXACT same way you would treat a woman. And the simple fact that men and women have such vastly different physiologies and psychologies they simply are not the same.
That being said men and women SHOULD be treated with equality, men should have no more rights and or athority than women do...but to say that we are exacvtly the same is laughably foolhardy
(not sure if this has been said or not lol) |
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All religion is a defense against a religious experience - Carl Jung
The power of philosophy floats through my head, light like a feather, heavy as lead - Bob Marley
The pioneers of a warless world are the youth that refuse military service - Albert Einstein |
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ScrumYummy
bunnyhunches of scrums
Gender:
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
| Satine wrote: |
When I was deciding what I wanted to major in in college and people would ask me what I wanted to do, I would say that I was considering teaching music. Their reply would almost invariably be "But you're so smart! You could do anything!" I would tell them, "Yes, but I want to teach." Teaching is traditionally a women's job, and still isn't considered a true profession. Teachers get nowhere near the respect that doctors and lawyers do. Some say "Those who can't do, teach." I'd like to see them handle a classroom full of rowdy kids and teach them how to read music. But I digress. |
Teachers don't get enough respect. You are absolutely right. And between obnoxious parents, rowdy kids, and school systems that don't pay near enough, it takes a lot to be a teacher. Go you =)
| Satine wrote: |
I'm one of those people who holds the door for everyone. It's how I was raised, and to me it's just good manners. I'm grateful when others do the same for me, though some men are prone to leering as I walk by. They get a glare that says "I am not a sex object. Don't look at me like one." Likewise, walking downtown I sometimes get comments like "Hey gorgeous!" or "It's about time a beautiful woman walked by!" from men passing by. Comments like that I don't really mind; sometimes they make me feel good. It gets annoying though, and some men give me a look that says they're imagining me naked. However, when I hear "I'd like a piece of that ass!" or "Look at that rack!" I take severe offense. I am more than my butt or my breasts! I may be a sexual being, but I am not a sex object and I will not be treated as such. |
*nod* Sometimes comments like that can be a little uplifting, but they're also kind of creepy, especially if they come from the same guy on multiple days. X)! There's this guy that hangs out in the south Park Blocks, and if he's there when I walk through the park, he always cat-calls or asks me on a date. I've told him I'm married and not interested, but he still persists. Makes me not want to walk through the park anymore. X)!
But yeah, men can treat women like that and "they're just acting like men." But if a woman does something along those lines, she's a slut, or a skank. Society has set this double-standard, and I think the only way we're going to overcome it is to recognize our strengths as women and that, instead of feeling weaker or like the "weaker sex" because of the desires of men, I think we should collectively learn to use them to our advantage.
| reaper wrote: |
Any way men and women should not be treated as equals honistly. because to treat equally means you would treat a woman the EXACT same way you would treat a woman. And the simple fact that men and women have such vastly different physiologies and psychologies they simply are not the same.
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You can't treat men and women exactly the same, you are right. But you also shouldn't treat women as objects, or like they know less than men, just because they're female. If a man makes a catcall at a girl walking by, he's just being rowdy. But if a women were to walk around and say things like "nice pecs!" or whatever, then she's a slut. It's an age-old double standard. |
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