PO Magic Tournament - "Guild Wars"

[Shino]

Well My issue is more that most of my spells are multi color. So if I lose 1 color, I'm pretty screwed.

I talked with Ming about it and it seems to be doing a little better.

[Blackmage]

It sucks that they stopped printed Sunglasses of Urza in 4th Edt. That'd help your guild out a LOT.

[Tobias]

lol...sunglasses of Urza...oh silly mana-fixing glasses!

[Daijaga]

Im confused on Rav pain lands and guild lands.

I cant quite wrap my head around the speed difference. If you bring out a land like Izzet Boilerworks, you have to return a land to your hand, and the Boilers produce 2 mana, one of each color. Next round you play out a land and its business as usual. Math = 2 turns, 3 mana. Disadvantages: Cant be played on the first turn. Cant be tapped for 1 mana.

The pain lands come out tapped unless you pay two life. So either I play one for free first turn and play another land next turn; or I pay 2 life and bring another land out next turn. Math = 0 life, 2 turns, 2 mana. // 2 life, 2 turns, 2 mana. Advantages: Can be played on the first turn, and or be tapped for one mana.

Im I reading the math wrong here, or do teh two color at a time lands seems to have a distinct advantage? I realize that the pain lands have first turn application and some lasting versitility, but tapping one land for two mana seems to be a clear favorite to me.

[Ultrawolf]

The problem with the guild lands is that you lose tempo.
Remember that it comes into play TAPPED so you can't use that mana the turn you drop it. So lets say first turn you drop a land. Second turn you drop a guild land and bounce that other land back. You cant play anything because you have no mana. You have to wait till third turn at which point you drop your other land. Its advantage is in thinning your deck slightly because you dont have to worry about having a land every turn but its risky because that gives your opponent a time advantage which can mean everything.

Pain lands are nice because you can play them as soon as they drop, they thin your deck and you can choose to delay. If you need the mana fix badly you pay the life. Its all about timing. The pain lands are best in the early game and the guild lands are best in the mid-late game when you dont need to rely so much on every mana.

[Daijaga]

I completly didnt see they came into play tapped, answers my whole question right there. I can see your other reasoning there as well. Thanks, Ill consider all that in my future deck testing. Your pal, UW ^_^.

[Ming]

Well, don't dismiss the use of "bouncelands" just yet. I, too, was a disbeliever until I read an article that explained the finer parts and nuances of their use. (Let me know if you want to read the article).

At any rate, the beauty of the bouncelands is that, not only do they give you access to multiple colors, but they essentially allow you to cheat on your land count. Look at it with this example:

In the early game, it is often essential that you play a land every turn. If you have a hand that contains 1 normal land and 1 bounceland, you are essentially guaranteed a land-drop for your first 3 turns...

Turn 1: Play Mountain
Turn 2: Play Izzet Boilerworks, returing Mountain
Turn 3: Play Mountain

Granted, you end up messing with your own tempo on turn 2. However, on turn 3, you have the same amount of mana that you would normally have, but with 2 lands instead of 3. If you extend this principle out throughout your deck, you can see that it allows you to play with a slightly lower land count, while at the same time generating the same amount of mana, and allowing you to play with more "business" spells. Essetially, each bounceland can be counted as 1.5-2 lands, and you'll be able to keep starting hands with 2 lands (as long as one is a bounceland), which in many cases you would be forced to mulligan.

The amount of bouncelands you play is determined on how important your early turns are, which has to do with how many spells are in your deck that can be played on particular turns. For example, if your deck contains a lot of 2cc spells, you want to avoid playing a bounceland on turn 2, and instead opt to play one on a later turn. I would say that the general rule of thumb is to run 4 if you don't mind playing one on turn 2, 3 if you need turn 2 but don't have much on turns 3 or 4, or 2 if you can't really afford to play one until later on in the game.

With regard to the Ravnica painlands (generally referred to as "shock lands" or just "duals"), they simply are the most efficient and versatile ways available to smooth out your mana base by giving you access to multiple colors. Their use really gives your deck much more consistency. If you are playing multiple colors, there really is no reason to NOT play with them. The biggest drawback that they give is that they have the potential to deal damage to you. However, if you play them carefully, you will rarely take damage from them.

[Tobias]

also, for other sitautions, the bouncelands can have a great impact. With cards like "Vinelasher Kudzu," it can be a fairly potent with cards like that, since they react with lands being put into play, and those lands repeat land-drops.

The Tobs hath spoken.

[Shino]

Vineslasher is teh awesome!

I don't run painlands in my casual decks much. Mainly b/c they are so expensive. But I do run bounce lands in many of them.

I talked with Ming about this recently about fixing my mana base and it seems to have worked for the time being. I'm still working with it, but it's better than it was.

[Ming]