Humane Society of the United States

Shandriz · Your Death Shall be Swift Gender: Joined: 28 Sep 2003

This problem is -never- going to find a happy, peaceful medium. Why? Becuase of exactly what Kudasai referred to-- he does not -believe- that all animals are sentient beings, and, as far as I can gather, believes them to be inferior to human beings, in whatever ways, for whatever reasons.

I believe differently.

However, these are BELIEFS. And, I hate to tell you people this, but, with the amount of Philosophy/Ethics/Psychology/Sociology classes I've been taken lately, I can just about PROVE that people will not change their BELIEFS without something incredibly hugely momentous happening to them PERSONALLY which has not been inflicted upon them by another human being.

You won't change a person's beliefs even if you argue them black and blue. That's part of the great thing of living in a society of individuals with real thoughts. Everybody has different opinions, and that's what makes everyone unique and wonderful in their own way.

So, let's respect everyone else's beliefs, eh? For some people, killing animals is morally wrong. For other people, it's right. For others, there are so many shades of gray, that you can't say straight up whether it's right or wrong.

It's something that happens. It's something that will probably continue to happen, as whether people believe it is right to raise creatures for slaughter or not, human beings are designed to eat meat, and most human beings are not willing to go to the lengths it would take for them to change this. Gaea knows I'm not-- I'd rather just eat the chicken and get over it than to attempt developing a fondness for peanuts.

Kudasai Hiroki · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:04 am Post subject:

I
I believe you've misunderstood me Shandriz.
I believe every plant, animal, fungus, and thing that grows on this planet has a soul. Every time I eat a steak or a McChicken sandwich I give thanks to the animal that, however unwillingly, gave it's life so that I could live.
I have always and will always eat meat. But it's not because I think animals are soulless or that we are just "better" than everything else on this planet. It's because I believe I am at one with nature. Like the wolf who hunts and kills the deer and the deer who kills the grass and the grass who get the last laugh by living off the nutrients of the dead wolf and deer.
I would never hurt or kill an animal or plant "just for fun".

However, the rest of your post is right on!

shadokastur · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject:

Kudasai Hiroki · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject:

Thank you Shadokastur for defining that for us. I know defining sentient isn't what this thread is about. I just didn't want to be misrepresented. I don't mean to take the thread off course Kugyou. Just had to set the record straight.

Kugyou · Katori Shintaro! Age: 44 Gender: Joined: 26 Sep 2005

shadokastur · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject:

Yes, I can see the "You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe." side of it all but as I was saying the people that believed slavery was right enslaved others and the people that believed women were inferior suppressed them. Did that makes their beliefs right?

So now that we've reached this all too common impasse where do we go from here? What kind of information do we require before we can choose the right (oe even what's best) in these familiar situations? And when "The Powers That Be" decide what's right, what kind of measures will they take to ensure that those they govern (us!) adhere to this new direction? Jail? Outlawing? Executions? Public Condemnation? The Scarlet Letter?

THIS is where the danger starts. What to do once a decision is made. How to follow through. Because there is no faith in the process of understanding-then-acting people are filled with a terror that what they believe will never come to be accepted, even though it's what they "know" to be good and right. The process' results are LONG TERM and often take longer than our lifespans will allow us to see it come to full fruition. But it does work otherwise we would not have made it this far morally or ethically.

Also part of being sentient, as outlined in the definition above, means an ability to experience emotional states. Animals have been proven to experience happiness and grief. To me this also states that they can feel terror and anger. And even animal mothers will fight to the death for their offspring. Monkeys have exhibited rationality in the facts that they can learn sign language and can make and use tools! Dolphins can also learn a symbol-based communication, a "language." In essence this means that only the degree to which we can rationalize seperates man from animal.

AND - Shandriz! This is an excellent point! (I highlighted the part I found most relevant to Kugyou's arguement.):

Kugyou · Katori Shintaro! Age: 44 Gender: Joined: 26 Sep 2005

You're right about one thing; we are at a full impasse. I refuse to accept that harming another human being is in any way beneficial to the moral or ethical fabric of society. I believe that as long as one does not hurt another human, one's beliefs should be allowed to exist. I don't believe that is is necessary or proper to force one's beliefs on another. Yes, I believe that animals are inferior to humans and should be treated as a usable resource. I do not believe that this in any way makes me subhuman, or that I should be a target for attacks against my property or life.

Furthermore:

I believe that any group that would harm another human being in order to force their beliefs on another is no better than the Spanish Inquisition.

It seems like the same few posts are all that's been cycling here at the end of the thread, just getting more heated and with more "evidence" thrown behind each. Thus, I'm requesting a lock.