I'm a wee bit confused... (church and state)

[KenseiKurisuchan]

Silly me, I was under the impression that there is nothing in the Constitution about seperation of church and state, only that "congress may establish no religion" blah blah. Which means they can't set an official religion, like Britain. I was also under the impression that some 45+ of the states have in their constitutions something along the lines of Georgia's, which reads "To perpetuate the principles of free government, insure justice to all, preserve peace, promote the interest and happiness of the citizen and of the family, and transmit to posterity the enjoyment of liberty, we the people of Georgia, relying upon the protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution." in the preamble.

Why is it, then, that people keep insisting that church and state must be seperated, were meant to be seperated by the founding fathers, and I see it sooooo often in arguements whenever a religious issue enters the political playing field?

EDIT: My bad, it's not just 45+; all 50 have God in there. Well, that at least have something in the consitution about rights from God. Most have it in the preamble.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/god-constitutions.htm

[reaper]

Ok here we go again, let me instruct you in the truth of the matter.
Let me share a little quote that should enlighten you.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of there off...." Guess who said that? Nobody, actually it’s the US constitution.

See people like you is what makes me laugh, you call for the separation to be done away with. But it is much like asking some one to shoot you because you think guns are cool. You see the separation is there to protect people like you. You are protestant am I right? Well let’s go ahead and take away the separation, the only thing is the majority is now catholic. So enjoy your new religious beliefs! But who knows it could be worse for you. Let’s say Wicca became the new state religion, you would have to forsake all you beliefs for this wonderful earth based religion. You would have to stop beleiving in God ,the Devil, everything or you would be a criminal.

Religion and state are separate because when they come together beliefs and laws become one. Remember how the Romans killed Catholics for being catholic?

I appreciate that fact that you believe what you believe strongly and think it is the answer to allot of problems in America. But many people do not, and they definitely do not think it is the answer. I don’t want any religious ideas forced on me. And I don’t have to because I am a free man.

[KenseiKurisuchan]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of there off...."

Umm...I already said that? All that says is they can't establish a religion or say one's not allowed. All you're doing is spitting out angry rhetoric. My point is that when people make a law based on their religious beliefs, it's not unconstitutional. The only unconstitutional law for religion is setting one up. Nothing that's been done thusfar (or attempted) would in any way go against what's stated. You example of Catholocism or Wicca is completely moot, as it has nothing to do with what this topic is about.

If you don't want any religious ideas forced on you, then uh-oh, America's not for you. Actually, most countries probably aren't. Go read the DoI sometime and see how this country was founded.

If you read the post instead of blowing up and assuming the general position you have on this, you'd see that I'm not calling for a religion to be enforced, which is what it looks like you think (from reading your post.) I'm saying that there's nothing unconstitutional about passing (or trying to) laws based on beliefs.

[BWS-1]

Constitutional or not, if all laws of today have to fallow what has been written hundred of years ago ... where will it lead us? When using logic and commun sense, if a law based on a catholoc, wicca or zen belief is passed in order to make the sociaty we live in a better place, I don't see why we should go against it. How many laws haven't passed because they were "unconstitutional" but yet were meant to help us live in a better place? I think we'll never know.

Take me for exemple, I might not entirely agree with the bible, buddism or the constitution, but it doesn't mean I don't agree with parts of each of them. And I find it sad when people feel the need that, if something comes from a different book then theirs, it can't be good.

It's like humanity is seperated by their beliefs the same way baseball fans are; you can only be cheering for ONE team, wish for it to make it to the World Series and win ... and during all the sesson they will brag about how better their team is over all the others and if you don't want to fallow any of that, you are pointed by all for not having any favorite, and they'll all do their best to make you feel ashamed for that ... only it's kinda worst then that when we talk of religions and beliefs that basicly all try to vehiculate the same message *coughrespect your fellow man*cough since people keep waging wars, dying, fighting and arguing in the world as we speak because of their different opinions.

Maybe it is just me who is weird ... no matter what my beliefs are, I am sure that a "true and dedicated" fallower from all the beliefs I have would come and tell me that, how I am right now, I'd end up burning in whatever "Hell" they believe in or I'd never get to truely be "enlighten" ... bleh

O and I wanted to add something else ... o yeah, seems like their has been a few misunderstanding in the past posts maybe but, doesn't mean we have to start burning each others. I don't want to lock this topic, for I believe their is a chance it won't turn out like other political threads ...

[reaper]

Ok first how dare you suggest I should leave the country.
Next it seems that you are as bad a judge of human disposition as you are at forming cohesive arguments. I am and was not angry but you are doing a good job of getting me there.

Now onto what I was saying that you can’t seem to comprehend for some reason. Because I understand what you mean perfectly.

The part of the constitution that you seem to not understand is found in the first amendments, the bill of rights. It is called freedom of religion. Here in the United States we have this wonderful thing. Which means you are free to follow whichever religion you see fit. You see my little friend that my examples of Catholics and Wicca are not a moot point. An exaggeration yes, but I figured you would understand better. It is really much more subtle.

If ANY law is passed in regarded to religion it is unconstitutional. There are many religions in this world and they are all found in America. So if any law is passed in regards to one specific religion, it intrudes on all others. If you were not so self centered in your beliefs and thinking, you would understand this.

And just so you know the Declaration of Independence does not mean shit. It didn't mean anything when it was drafted, and it doesn’t mean anything now. So that my friend is a moot point.

[KenseiKurisuchan]

[reaper]

BWS you are 100% right. But the problem is only people outside of religion, such as you and I, can see it this way.

I have no problems with any religion I think they are great. But I feel that since we have the freedom to practice as we see fit it should be preserved. That is the point I am arguing. KenseiKurisuchan is free to practice as he sees fit, but so is every one else. No one has the right to infringe on a persons beliefs at all.

But what you said about the good aspects of religion being laws, well the pretty much are. You can not steal, you cannot harm another person, or anything like that. Most of the humanitarian things in religion are already laws and no one cares. But stuff like Ken is talking about would infringe on peoples rights to religious freedom.

[KenseiKurisuchan]

My main concern at the moment is abortion, which I believe already infringes on the 'life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness' of an unborn child.

[reaper]

That is admirable, but many people do not share the same beliefs as you and it is not fair to them. You don’t agree with abortion fine then protest it, don’t practice it its all grand. If abortion is made illegal it should be for the fact that it is a human life that is killed because some teenagers were irresponsible.
Look all I want is for every one to have freedom of religion. Why oh why do you have a problem with that.

And this is just for education: The Declaration of independence did nothing. We drafted it up and sent it to the brits and did they say "oh damn seems the yanks are independent now” No king George called them "damn rebels" and dispatched the British army. The declaration means nothing, it gives no rights, it did not free us from British rule nothing. It was mainly just propaganda with pretty words about inalienable rights to get the country behind the revolution

[KenseiKurisuchan]

How would banning abortion harm freedom of religion?