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graphic I'm a wee bit confused... (church and state) graphic
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take me home
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Joined: 04 Nov 2004
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:46 pm    Post subject:

BWS-1 wrote:
take me home wrote:
I can tell you that my mom has several friends (of whom I have met) that are still suffering from an abortion they had 20 years ago.



Killing is illegal, but if you kill in self-defence ... you might not go to jail. It should be the same with abortion, if you can bring a good reason to have that happen to you, such as proofs that you won't be able to keep the baby or to give him the care he deserves and help him in his pursuit of happyness ... then it should be granted to the person the right to have abortion.

.


...
Self-defense of what? I know, them fetus' are devilish little creatures, but I highly doubt there is much need for self-defense(save that crazy one that attacked me last week, jumped right out the womb). There isnt much good reason to abortion save either irresponsibility or fear of having to take care of the baby? If you get an abortion in order to not being able to keep the baby, how can you prove its better to kill it rather than give it away? And if you cant support it to its right of pursuit of happiness, does that mean no one else can?

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Shino
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:44 am    Post subject:

take me home wrote:
...
Self-defense of what? I know, them fetus' are devilish little creatures, but I highly doubt there is much need for self-defense(save that crazy one that attacked me last week, jumped right out the womb). There isnt much good reason to abortion save either irresponsibility or fear of having to take care of the baby? If you get an abortion in order to not being able to keep the baby, how can you prove its better to kill it rather than give it away? And if you cant support it to its right of pursuit of happiness, does that mean no one else can?


Girl gets Raped
Girl gets Pregnant
Girl gets abortion

I see nothing wrong with that.

Pro-choice all the way!

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Faye
Luna Sierra


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:14 am    Post subject:

I believe Jay said it best in the movie Dogma.

Jay wrote:
Me and Silent Bob are pro-choice. A woman's body is her own fuckin business

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Daijaga
Chosen of Luck



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:14 am    Post subject:

Going back to the original ide, seperation of church and state.

Its really hard to define where that seperation begins. At what line does law and belief blur? Laws are designed to keep order and protect the public, in a very general sense, but poeple have very different beliefs on what order is. A christian may believe that abortion is disorderly and unacceptable, a product of a degenerate society, while I may not believe that. A mormon or a hindu may believe he should be allowed to take two or three wives by his own and the wives free will, but our current law does not allow that behavior in a legal manner. The idea Im getting at is that as human beings, theres no way for what we believe religiously to not creep into our morality, and thusly how we thing society should be regulated and ordered.

As Kensei said, this country was founded with christian beliefs. When the americans defined "seperation of church and state", they ment baptists and penecostals and such, not wiccans, buddhists, hindus, etc. Unfortunatly for our founding fathers, however, its been over two hundered years since their demise, and their ideas are getting a littel stale. Lets face it, america isnt the same country it was ten years ago, and it damn sure isnt the country George was president of back in the day.

Frankly, I feel our consitution is stale. For a group of guys that were probably as educated as a modern day highschooler (no offence to our founders, but public education had some a long way), and thought that the cannon was the most advanced ballistic weapon to be had, they didnt a pretty swell job of designing a country. But we're different now. Way different. Its a problem of being stagnant, age wears on a country as surely as it does a human, and as more and more thigns become the norm in society, or new activities are developed, we can only try to keep patching our system of laws and legalities. Which will be inevitbly influenced by our beliefs, religious or otherwise.

On a side note, I agree with Jay and Silent Bob. Im not about to tell a woman what to do with her body. If she wants to use aortion as birthcontrol and ruin her body and production glands and spend vast amount of money, I would rather her do it than victimize a very small number of women who need or desire abortions for legitimate reasons, such as health, wealth or family concerns, as well as moral concerns of raising a rapists' child. Not my business.
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Graillik Tur
Renaissancetaku



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:35 am    Post subject:

Dai got close but again none of you have a friggin clue what your talking about.

The First Amendment was written several years ago. It was to ensure that the state or country could not impose a single religious belief upon the entire state or country. It was also put in place to ensure no single law would dirrect conflict with the resonable practices of a religion. Understand the term reasonable. If the Islamic, Christianic, or Buddhist beliefs came out tomorrow and sad "You must murder 5 men, 7 women, and 16 children under 14 you may enter the afterlife, don't and it's the pit." the state would most certainly make a move on the religion and declare it illegal.

I give you the case of...the Branch Dividians. A religion by every aspect of the world. Was it a good one, no. Did the state fight it...yes. Was this unconstitutional...no. Why? Any ammendment may not superceed the Constitution. Since murder is unconstitutional, the relgion is in direct conflict with the founding law of the country, there for illegal.

Seperation of Church and State is less the 50 years old. My father saw it inacted shortly after he graduated high school. A woman by the name of Madalyn O'Hare began a protest in the 70's against religion in school. It succeeded. This is why you may not have a prayer at the beginning of the day like we had when I was in High School. How did we have it?

The seperation of church and state bleeds into all state funded institutions...including schools. But libraries have funding from the government, and have bibles and access to other religious documents. Certainly this can't be the case as there must be a seperation of church and state. But it is.

The actual law of Church and State is not in the constitution. That has nothing to do with the 'seperation' of church and state.

Back to the abortion topic. Ya, I also have a problem with denying the rights of children. I believe anything they can do chemically to stop the birthing process, like the morning after pill, is reasonable. I believe anything that has a blade involved is unreasonable.

However I don't believe the government can tell you what to do with your body, your childs body, or how you handle your contraceptives. Abortion rights need to change, but not outlawed. Outlawing won't stop abortion. Merely make it more dangerous. Sad but that was the only thing I agreed about with Kerry.

He said "I wish we lived in a society that didn't need abortion, but I won't outlaw it."

That seems reasonable.

There is your history lesson for the day kiddies. Look it up, it's right there on the Web.

Another friendly message from your local Knowledge pit.

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Why do we insist in believing we are masters of our surroundings when we fail so miserably to master ourselves?


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Silver Adept
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:03 pm    Post subject:

Kudoes to the civil discussion that has been going on so far (although the threat of a Modthwack does tend to get people to talk more civilly)

I prefer to avoid the abortion issue, stating that I do not like abortions of convienence, but I can understand that there may be situations where an abortion is needed. That is my position.

The other issue, separation of church and state, is one I've been looking at amusedly while maturing in education, and now somewhat more intently, considering the re-election of the President.

There is no explicit separation of church and state in the Constitution. the establishment and free exercise clauses only prevent the government from mandating an official church and from suppressing other religious practices. Many government scholars and officials interpret that to mean the church and the state should be separated from each other. This is the idea that many postulate when they talk about this issue - an atheist government that passes laws strictly based on social ethics, and that recognizes religious institutions but does nothing to further or hinder their aims, excepting where they come in conflict with law.

Separation of Church and State indicates that both units are to be kept independent of each other, so that neither can interfere in the workings of the other, and preventing, for example, the President from also being the Grand Poobah of the American Church. That's it. Religion can suggest law, and if the government is sympathetic to that religion, they can pass that law. Which they have, several times. Because of the heavily Christian nature of the populace, quite naturally, Christian "moral values" have found their way into the books of law. Should the country become Buddhist, I don't doubt that Buddhist values would find their way into the law books.

So taking Grallik's Bibles in libraries example: Separation of church from state would indicate the conclusion he reaches - that libraries, as government-funded institutions, should not have any religious material in them. Separation of church and state, as I advocate it, allows libraries to stock Bibles, Books of Shadows, Sutras of the Buddha, etc. so long as they do not officially advocate one over another (establishment) or restrict access to any of them (free exercise). In an unrelated manner, since libraries are the repository of societal knowledge, to do their job correctly, they would have to include religious texts in their collections.

So what do I think? Well, I'm not particularly fond of the legislature and the President imposing their values into law and would prefer that if they were to pass such legislation, that they can produce several good a-religious reasons to pass the law. They are, however, within their legal right to do so.

The point that they cross over into an infringement of their own law and Constitution is when they become worthy of scorn, derision, and calls for their impeachment. Such may happen soon, if you believe all the rumors floating about.

In my final point, I'll note that many of you have cited examples of your personal experience with other people and their ignorance or bias on these issues. It is your responsibility to educate them or find out why they think that way and provide them with the knowledge of another perspective. In addition, remember that you are expressing your own opinion on all of these matters, as am I. And as vehemently as we believe in our opinions as correct, never forget the possibility that you can be wrong. (Correct me if I've been wrong in this, please. It's the only way I learn.)

Edited to include Grallik's library example as a visual aid.

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KenseiKurisuchan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:34 pm    Post subject:

This just in: Silver Adept is way hot.
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RuneLateralus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:11 am    Post subject:

My biggest issue with the church and state issue is that religion is way too much of a propaganda tool. It almost seems that many preachers or religious organizations seem to be way too close to the candidates at times. Granted that media has can be said as the same, but they usually do not have an influence as strong as the church.

I guarentee you that Farenheight 9/11 did not have as big as impact in the election than religion did.

When religion does come into play with law making, I fear they feel is the best for all is only good for the few. Abortion is an example. Abortion is an issue of women's rights and I feel it shouldn't be banned. I feel if you don't agree with it, then don't use the option of it. To me, it is an indirect way of attempting to push one group's views on entire population.

The only other issue I have with it is that the views seem to only really push our country back instead of moving forward. Gay rights, for example, shouldn't have ever been that big of an issue. Besides, I don't think it really effects people as much as argued.

But I would like to state these are my views that I developed from my own life. You can disagree with me, but this is the way I see the world, and you will not change my mind on how I feel with a speech. Do I think that religion is a huge problem? No. It isn't. Religion can be a good thing. It can provide great guidance on life. But I can say that there is a lot more to the problems than just easy answers that so many want to hear. Shame no one really ever wants to get into the problem.

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Graillik Tur
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:14 am    Post subject:

I really want to know, and I'm not trying to sound like a jerk...but Rune, I've seen two posts now about 'propaganda'. What is it that America is trying to cram down your throat? Or Religion, what is it doing to you?

I really want to know because I grew up in a small white bread American town were we drive trucks with gun racks and I never once felt I had been influenced by propaganda. The 3 semesters at the most liberal of colleges in the state I never felt I was influenced either. Why? I have no idea...but the protests didn't effect me one way or another. So I'm asking, where is the man's propaganda.

On to the next part...Silver is almost dead on. I talked to a friend today about this who is taking a college course on this exact subject.

There is no such thing as a complete seperation of church and state. Silver is right but it reads as this.

"The government shall make no law advocating one religion over another, or inabling a religion to practice peacefully."

The government funds religious based organizations under those same criteria. So actually, there is no true seperation of church and state.

Abortion...we are getting closer to an answer here in texas. In order to define the rights of an individual we must quantify life. Dependant on the definition of life we may give a thing the basic rights of a human by constituional law. What does this mean? We have to all agree when life begins. Conception? 3rd trimester? As long as we all agree we can make a law on this.

Say it's after 6 months aboriton is illegal and is considered murder 2nd degree. Okay, fine. This would also bring into play that a miscarriage could be negligence and involentary manslaughter on the part of the mother. That doesn't sound like it's moving in the right direction to me.

Again all I hear about is the women. Only women get pregnant, only women have to deal with this, only women...and that is so sad. If I got someone pregnant I to would have to deal with this. So would my family.

IT IS NOT JUST THE MOTHER OF THE CHILD THAT HAS TO DEAL WITH THIS!

Atleast not in the right society. Most men do run, and they are stupid and weak for doing so. I for one am willing to take my chances while having sex. Morning after pills, birth control and condoms are my main staples in my sex life. Why? 3 shot protection, very little gets through. But again these are just my personal thoughts and have no real baring other than my own meandering experiances. Good night, and God's speed.

_________________
It is my firm belief that in this era of mass connectivity, the death of us all will be mass media.

Why do we insist in believing we are masters of our surroundings when we fail so miserably to master ourselves?


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RuneLateralus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:54 am    Post subject:

The whole "it is a sin to vote for a pro-choice candidate" was one example of propaganda. Now unless there was more into that I missed, it sounds like they are trying to say that a vote for a pro-choice candidate is a sin no matter what. It just seems too much of a shallow way to tell people to vote. Now, if there was more into that message (like if you vote for the candidate for that reason), then I take it back, but I highly doubt it.

What is it doing to me directly? Nothing. I am not a church goer, so I never really had too much experience with it. But let me ask you this. What is abortion directly doing to you? Or those opposing gay rights what gays and lesbians are trying to shove down their throat, especially when they rarely ever seen or are around that behavior? What is the consequence of their actions on them. They are just people. It is just something that I don't see as right, and that is my opinion. I don't believe there should be something that should try to control our thoughts and emotions. I never was influenced by propaganda. Not in the liberal arts college in downtown Chicago. Not by the very conservative Catholic grade and high school I went to. Whatever propaganda they threw at me I just put it with the bullshit.

I hope I didn't come off as a jerk, but I edited this 5 times now trying to think of the best way to type this out...and this is the best I can do. I hope it is more understanding that it is an annoyance.

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