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shadokastur
Patience to see and strength to do. That is all.
Gender: 
Joined: 26 Jan 2003 |
 Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
Oh that boy's gonna do it again!!
Ready?
| Buda wrote: |
we raise cows like we raise wheat, for the sole purpose of consumption. |
| Kudasai Hiroki wrote: | | Cattle, like many other animals, are mostly raised to become a food product of some type. Humans as a species are omnivores. |
Yes, but SHOULD THEY BE? The ethics of how to treat animals (living arrangements and/or IF they should even BE eaten) is what these groups are IDEALLY trying to approach and establish.
| Kugyou wrote: | | And that's the last thing I'd like said about vegetarianism in my thread about political groups masquerading as animal welfare or human health groups. |
| Kugyou wrote: | Blunt request:
This is not a thread about vegetarianism, or theories about the human body's function in regards to meat. This is a thread about groups like PeTA and the HSUS that would like very much to control how people are allowed to interact with animals. There's a link I edited into the first post of this thread that's meant to be a jumping-off point for further discussion.
I feel as if this thread is getting jacked across to a debate I did not want to bring up, and if it continues to go in that direction I will ask for it to be locked. I don't want to sound like a tyrant, but I kind of did start the thread. So please, can we keep any further posts confined to subjects of:
- Eco-terrorism
- Food nannies (without getting on the subject of veg/vegan/carnivores)
- Charitable groups that push dangerous agendas
. |
K, if you're going to start a thread like this you should probably allow the thoughts that people feel are related and validitory of their views on the subject matter to be fully explored. Otherwise it sounds like you only want to hear from people who share your point of view and share it your way. That's the risk you run with bringing up ANY opinion based topic. If there could possibly be another side to the story there will be, and there always will be. Just like politics and religion all opinions CAN BE discussed but must be discussed in an open and understanding environment.
| Kugyou wrote: | | On the initial topic - Chesh, you mentioned you're against animal cruelty. I violently agree with you. My only problem is that too many groups want to theorize about animal psychology when determining the definition of 'animal cruelty'. I have actually heard of chicken farms being touted as 'cruel' because the living conditions aren't unsanitary, or dangerous...but because they're demeaning to chickens. |
This is just dumb. Unless you can talk to chickens this carries no weight at all aside from the fact they should probably have a little room to scratch around in and a nice big cock to get 'em clucking (I kill me!). |
_________________
After our battle, I will keep the ash to remember you by. ~Phayne~
It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built. ~Darth Traya~ |
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Kugyou
Katori Shintaro!
Age: 44
Gender:
Joined: 26 Sep 2005 |
| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: |
| shadokastur wrote: | | Kugyou wrote: | | And that's the last thing I'd like said about vegetarianism in my thread about political groups masquerading as animal welfare or human health groups. |
| Kugyou wrote: | Blunt request:
This is not a thread about vegetarianism, or theories about the human body's function in regards to meat. This is a thread about groups like PeTA and the HSUS that would like very much to control how people are allowed to interact with animals. There's a link I edited into the first post of this thread that's meant to be a jumping-off point for further discussion.
I feel as if this thread is getting jacked across to a debate I did not want to bring up, and if it continues to go in that direction I will ask for it to be locked. I don't want to sound like a tyrant, but I kind of did start the thread. So please, can we keep any further posts confined to subjects of:
- Eco-terrorism
- Food nannies (without getting on the subject of veg/vegan/carnivores)
- Charitable groups that push dangerous agendas
. |
K, if you're going to start a thread like this you should probably allow the thoughts that people feel are related and validitory of their views on the subject matter to be fully explored. Otherwise it sounds like you only want to hear from people who share your point of view and share it your way. That's the risk you run with bringing up ANY opinion based topic. If there could possibly be another side to the story there will be, and there always will be. Just like politics and religion all opinions CAN BE discussed but must be discussed in an open and understanding environment. |
Shad, the point is that I started a thread about a specific topic, and I didn't want it to turn into a veg/anti-veg debate. It's not that I don't want to hear from people who disagree with me, I simply don't want to keep seeing inflammatory comments about eating habits that have nothing to do with groups that sink ships in harbors, firebomb buildings, and distribute "Your Mommy Kills Animals!" comic books to elementary school children. If you disagree with my beliefs about fur or leather, fine. If you disagree with my beliefs about animal living conditions, post about it. I'd like to discuss this topic, without it turning into the same veg/anti-veg debate I've heard rehashed a thousand times. |
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Kudasai Hiroki
Have you seen my mind? I seem to have lost it.
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Joined: 23 Dec 2005 |
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: |
| Kugyou wrote: | Sounds like it might have been SHAC (Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty). They're known for destroying animal testing labs without first "liberating" the animals. Also known for open death threats against the researchers therein.
Could have been ALF/ELF, too - but the MO sounds like SHAC. |
I believe it was ELF. They're famous for firebombing, vandalism, and generally causing mayhem in the name of animals.
| Kugyou wrote: | | I'd like to discuss this topic, without it turning into the same veg/anti-veg debate I've heard rehashed a thousand times. |
Here, here! I have nothing against vegitarians. I do, however, have something against a person or groups of people who do harm to others for reasons they themselves don't truly understand. Really, it all boils down to people who's minds are so one-sided that they can't or won't see the other side of an argument. They are so wrapped up in what they believe that it's impossible for them to, even for one second, step out and see where the other side is coming from. |
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shadokastur
Patience to see and strength to do. That is all.
Gender:
Joined: 26 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
| Kugyou wrote: | | shadokastur wrote: | | Kugyou wrote: | | And that's the last thing I'd like said about vegetarianism in my thread about political groups masquerading as animal welfare or human health groups. |
| Kugyou wrote: | Blunt request:
This is not a thread about vegetarianism, or theories about the human body's function in regards to meat. This is a thread about groups like PeTA and the HSUS that would like very much to control how people are allowed to interact with animals. There's a link I edited into the first post of this thread that's meant to be a jumping-off point for further discussion.
I feel as if this thread is getting jacked across to a debate I did not want to bring up, and if it continues to go in that direction I will ask for it to be locked. I don't want to sound like a tyrant, but I kind of did start the thread. So please, can we keep any further posts confined to subjects of:
- Eco-terrorism
- Food nannies (without getting on the subject of veg/vegan/carnivores)
- Charitable groups that push dangerous agendas
. |
K, if you're going to start a thread like this you should probably allow the thoughts that people feel are related and validitory of their views on the subject matter to be fully explored. Otherwise it sounds like you only want to hear from people who share your point of view and share it your way. That's the risk you run with bringing up ANY opinion based topic. If there could possibly be another side to the story there will be, and there always will be. Just like politics and religion all opinions CAN BE discussed but must be discussed in an open and understanding environment. |
Shad, the point is that I started a thread about a specific topic, and I didn't want it to turn into a veg/anti-veg debate. It's not that I don't want to hear from people who disagree with me, I simply don't want to keep seeing inflammatory comments about eating habits that have nothing to do with groups that sink ships in harbors, firebomb buildings, and distribute "Your Mommy Kills Animals!" comic books to elementary school children. If you disagree with my beliefs about fur or leather, fine. If you disagree with my beliefs about animal living conditions, post about it. I'd like to discuss this topic, without it turning into the same veg/anti-veg debate I've heard rehashed a thousand times. |
Ok. Lowest common denominator: The actions of these people/organizations has a two-sided impact (just like anything). On one hand, their radical actions serve as a "wake-up" call for those who go about their lives either oblivious to "the downside" of their lifestyles or callous and not wanting to change because it would inconvenience them. That is to whom these actions are intended to be a message. But, on the other hand, actions like those are damaging to them (the people and/or organizations) because it shows them and their agendas in a very negative and extremist light. People aren't going to care to hear you out if they think you're another Hitler with a different fanatical focus.
In short: Best of intentions but poorest of executions.
AND... Radical results require radical actions.
Maybe they've taken this on as their life's work and want to see results in their lifetimes. It can be a bit of pressure when you feel like the only one capable to fulfill your vision. To me this would be like my band getting a new singer but still calling themselves Code Atom if I didn't want to be signed. The mouth would move but the soul would be different.
I guess it all boils down to them wanting something bad enough to have it NOW instead of waiting for facts to be gleaned from long-term analysis and widely-accepted reason and then using this information (facts!) to make an informed and wise decision that will affect the way the world's perception evolves. And as history attests to (The Crusades!) this kind of desire is what thousands (maybe MORE) have died to see come to fruition: THAT THE WHOLE WORLD WILL COME TO SEE THEIR BELIEFS AS THE BE-ALL END-ALL ONE RIGHT WAY TO LIVE AND ABIDE BY. I'll take informed apathy over ignorant action ANYDAY. |
_________________
After our battle, I will keep the ash to remember you by. ~Phayne~
It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built. ~Darth Traya~ |
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Kugyou
Katori Shintaro!
Age: 44
Gender:
Joined: 26 Sep 2005 |
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: |
| shadokastur wrote: |
Ok. Lowest common denominator: The actions of these people/organizations has a two-sided impact (just like anything). On one hand, their radical actions serve as a "wake-up" call for those who go about their lives either oblivious to "the downside" of their lifestyles or callous and not wanting to change because it would inconvenience them. That is to whom these actions are intended to be a message. But, on the other hand, actions such those are damaging to them (the people and/or organizations) because it shows them and their agendas in a very negative and extremist light. |
I dunno - I'd call any group whose agenda is "cripple the animal husbandry industry, then stop people from eating animals altogether, then stop people from being allowed to interact with animals" as extremist. Or the groups that want to cripple the pharmaceutical industry - the ones who say that if a monkey dies for a vaccine to be made that cures a million people, that that's not an acceptable tradeoff. Or the ones who try to go the religious route, by claiming to Christians that somewhere in there, the Bible says "Thou shalt not eat meat", or to Jews that Judaism is really a vegetarian religion, and that kosher butchery is a perversion of their faith.
A lot of people aren't oblivious to "the downside" of their lifestyles, or too callous to change because of "inconvenience". I know that if I wear fur or leather, that I'm wearing the skin of a dead animal. Does that exempt me from getting paint chucked on me? I know how chickens are processed; a friend of mine worked in one of the plants here in Georgia. Does that mean that my children won't be given a "Bucket 'o' Blood" in front of KFC? I mean, I'm completely aware of "the downside" of my lifestyle - animals die to make food that I eat, to test the drugs that save lives, and for other products in my everday life. What about the researchers in pharm labs? I'm pretty certain they're aware of the ends their rats are coming to - why doesn't that excuse them from being firebombed?
To be blunt, I *really* don't see what light other than negative and extremist there can be for a lot of these groups. I don't agree that any group should be allowed to tell me what I can and cannot eat, wear, or have as a pet (the original founder of PeTA is against pet ownership). I don't agree that any group has the right to destroy the property of another, or to put that person in a state of fear because the group disagrees with the person's actions. Some of these groups (ELF/ALF, SHAC, Sea Shepherd) honestly believe that this is war, and that they are Freedom Fighters on the side of animals (and against any human who believes that mankind has dominion over animals).
I also take issue with the number of front groups that some of these organizations hide behind. Groups with names like the "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine", an anti-pharm/anti-meat group whose membership is only 5% medical (and even that portion cannot be necessarily said to be supporters). Or the titular "Humane Society of the United States", which has no real financial ties to any animal shelter in the country, yet uses millions in "Shelter Dog" advertisements to draw people to their website, which has more news about which celebrities have taken up the cause (and anti-shark fishing 'news') than about the actual treatment of shelter animals. |
_________________
CI, Eqvites Ivbalis, Order of the Knights of Jubal
"It is the end of days, and I am the reaper." --Alessa
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shadokastur
Patience to see and strength to do. That is all.
Gender:
Joined: 26 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
What I'm saying, in short, is that anybody can take anything semi-believable and speak about it with enough fervor and people will be brainwashed into believing that it is something worth dying for. Whether it be religion, politics, animal-rights, what color of balloon looks better with their shoes and others will follow it, believe it and KILL for it. I dunno, it seems to be more like a sick fascination of people that we have to identify and fight for something. And as long as we choose a side someone else will choose it's opposite. It ALL seems fairly absurd to me.
In old times a woman was thought very attractive if she was overweight, but nowdays it's different. It's all about the underlying concept that comes with the symbol. The rotund female was a symbol of wealth and status because she obviously had money and luxury if she could afford to be that fat. She could afford the food and had the time just to sit around and eat. These days she's lazy and over-indulgent! Let's WAGE A &*%$#@G WAR over it!!! And if you go with the "we know it's unhealthy now to be overweight so it's wrong" arguement then you get to the observation that women these days are now subjected to the stress of being compared to any swimsuit/ lingerie/ men's magazine model and most feel that they have to change themselves to be desirable in the common worldview!! THIS IS INSANITY! I also feel it's worth mentioning that stress is a HUGE contributor to such diseases as Heart attack, strokes and kidney failure meaning that whether it's a physical or mental problem, LIVING SHORTENS YOUR LIFE! And, I'd LOVE to point out that this is just an example whose chain of events can be traced throughout history and will continue to act in it's ridiculously harmful way centuries after you and I are long dead!! I NO LONGER BELIEVE IN ONE RIGHT WAY! So do what you want humanity, just be happy that you have the chance to be here and are able to do it!
/over-zealous cynical rant
I'm sorry I couldn't help you vent or clarify this matter, Kugyou. I just get caught up sometimes. You are completely welcome to your opinion and I apologize if I have intruded in your personal cyberspace.
This debate will now return to it's regularly scheduled pros and cons. |
_________________
After our battle, I will keep the ash to remember you by. ~Phayne~
It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built. ~Darth Traya~ |
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Kugyou
Katori Shintaro!
Age: 44
Gender:
Joined: 26 Sep 2005 |
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
| shadokastur wrote: | I NO LONGER BELIEVE IN ONE RIGHT WAY! So do what you want humanity, just be happy that you have the chance to be here and are able to do it!
/over-zealous cynical rant
I'm sorry I couldn't help you vent or clarify this matter, Kugyou. I just get caught up sometimes. You are completely welcome to your opinion and I apologize if I have intruded in your personal cyberspace.
This debate will now return to it's regularly scheduled pros and cons. |
Uh, actually, shad, you, uh...kind of explained why I dislike those groups so much. I respect a person's right to not eat meat, or not wear leather, or whatnot. I have no problem with someone being a vegetarian, vegan, or even a rabid carnivore. My problem is with groups like these that want to tell me, you, and hell, even Scrum that they're not living by this "One Right Path" they've come up with, and that they're the only ones who can decide how humanity is supposed to deal with animals. |
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CI, Eqvites Ivbalis, Order of the Knights of Jubal
"It is the end of days, and I am the reaper." --Alessa
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shadokastur
Patience to see and strength to do. That is all.
Gender:
Joined: 26 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
Although that is the jist of what I said in my last rant I would like to qualify that many things we now believe were considered wrong back in the day. So we have to continue to heavily weigh our options and facts. If not, slavery might still be wide-spread, women would'nt have rights, the church and the state would be even more fused than they already are (The Spanish Inquisition). So, to contradict my previous rant, while I'm rapidly losing faith in there being "one right way" there have to be things that are just "right" to do. And who's to say that eating animals is the best thing for our species' longevity? Human being have traits of both carnivores and herbivores making us, of course, omnivores. I think it all depends on where we want to go from here. We have the choice ahead of us and it's just a matter of time before we choose to choose. Maybe vegetarians (extremists or not)have a sort of intuition, maybe they have it right and it's just too big of a pill for us to swallow right now because we don't want to give up something we have identified as acceptible and it's something we like. It seems to me that there are a few advanced ones amongst us but the overall tone of life is set by a mass mentality. And this mass mentality is a wall that can only be toppled permanently if we chip away at it so it gets smaller and smaller until eventually, we hardly even remember it was there to begin with. Time is on our side, we just have to have faith and patience. I FULLY believe this applies to any change of ideas and lifestyles.
And, in case anyone is wondering I do this too often and I drive myself absolutely carzy when I do it. Sorry.
REY |
_________________
After our battle, I will keep the ash to remember you by. ~Phayne~
It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built. ~Darth Traya~ |
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Kugyou
Katori Shintaro!
Age: 44
Gender:
Joined: 26 Sep 2005 |
| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: |
I'm going to take something you said slightly out of context, but I'll say right now that I am not asserting that my comments in any way reflect your opinion or my assessment thereof.
| shadokastur wrote: | | If not, slavery might still be wide-spread, women would'nt have rights, the church and the state would be even more fused than they already are (The Spanish Inquisition). |
- Slavery: People didn't have rights to themselves. This was rectified.
- Women's Rights: We're not totally there yet, I don't think, but this was also an issue of people not being given freedom of choice in their lives (voting, job choice, etc.)
- Spanish Inquisition: People stripped of their right to practice whatever religion they choose.
Again, duly and thoroughly noting that I am not responding to the remainder of what you've said, my question is:
What right does any special interest group have to tell me what food I can eat, what articles of clothing I may wear, and what animals I may willfully keep in my house?
Now, to dissect my own argument.
- Slavery (specifically, African slavery in the United States): Many slave owners believed that the African slaves were in some way sub-human, and therefore not deserving of rights.
- Women's rights: The patriarchal societies of the time did not believe that women were capable of functioning the same as men, and therefore were not entitled to the same rights as men.
- Spanish Inquisition: The Catholic Church believed that non-Christians were in some way less than human, and that they were only deserving of rights if they conformed to the Church's ideals.
However, I do not believe that animals are sentient beings, and my own beliefs dictate to me that mankind's place is a place of caring dominion, inasmuch that we are to keep from wiping critters off the map and utilize them in reasonable ways. To illustrate:
- I am against sport hunters who only want the rack and discard the rest of a deer, wasting a resource.
- I am retroactively against the extinction of the dodo. Just because a bird is stupid enough to stand there while you take potshots at it doesn't mean you have to take them *all* out.
- I am against randomly willfully introducing foreign creatures into an ecosystem only for the purposes of bolstering economy (Cane Toad, anyone?)
And of course, I can't think of any proper way to conclude my statement, so I'll just leave it there. |
_________________
CI, Eqvites Ivbalis, Order of the Knights of Jubal
"It is the end of days, and I am the reaper." --Alessa
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KenseiKurisuchan
Alive and kicking
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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