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Shino
Fade into this fantasy, caught in the web of time
Age: 49
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Joined: 15 Sep 2002 |
 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
| Aiman wrote: | | Ok, but if I am reading this right, you are misunderstanding the point as well. What would be the point of porting a game to a PS2 if you would have to BUY the waggle-wand or wall or whatever it's called? If it's, like you said, a PS2 with that capability. On the other hand, if it's an upgrade to the current PS2 for $99 then, I still think it would be stupid because the price is too high, but it would make more sense to buy an upgrade than buy a new system. |
From what I understand... the PS2 that is $99 will come with it. That is not to say that there won't be an add on. If there is, I don't see it being very expensive. How could it be when you can buy the system for $99.
Also, keep in mind that NONE OF THIS has been confirmed. It's all rumor right now. Honestly, the whole thing seems a little far fetched to me, but I think it would be cool if they did do it.
| Blackmage wrote: | Aye me too
But anyways if I can't add this waggle-x feature to my current PS2 spending $99 on another ps2 is out of the question.
And for some reason I still see sony missing the boat on this one and it ending up like the eye toy |
I'm doubt they would do that though. It would probably be an add on for like the price of a controller. Which I believe are running what ... $30 right now.
Also, I don't think the eye toy did that badly. It did well enough for them to continue research and release one for the PS3. I didn't get the PS2 eye toy, but after seeing Eye of Judgement... I'm definitely getting the PS3 one.
Wow... Riva... are you kidding me man. I thought you knew me a LOT better than that.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Besides, consumers aren't as stupid as they appear, they know the Wii did this first, regardless of any patents Sony took out at any point in time, the point of the matter is Nintendo released the device first, they announced the control method well over a year ago now and Sony are desperate to try and get some of their flagging customer base back by any means nessacary. |
What are you talking about? Of course customers THINK that Nintendo did it first. But what about those that didn't jump onto a console yet this gen. They still have that PS2 sitting at home. Well if some of the games that 3rd parties are making on the Wii are coming to PS2 as well with an add on that's a hell of a lot cheaper than going out and buying a Wii, which direction do you think they are going to go. Sony has always said that they plan to stick to a 10 year life span of their system. They did it with the PS1. Problem is that the PS1 game library for those last 3 years was weak. This is Sony using an idea (WHICH EVERY COMPANY DOES SO DON'T PULL THAT COPYING SHIT OUT) to create an opportunity to bring a better final library for the PS2.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Thats desperation on their part, they're trying to keep the PS2 alive because the PS3 is struggling so much and the PSP has been a technical failure (I recently bought one and like it but it doesn't have the mainstream appeal that Nintendo have managed with the DS, plus its still too expensive). |
No Riva, Sony isn't trying to keep the PS2 alive b/c the PS3 is struggling... they are doing it b/c THEY PROMISED THEY WOULD! 10 year life span. They have said it since the PS1 days! And how in the hell is the PSP a failure. First. The PSP has done something that many (Sega, NEC, Neo-Geo, Wonderswan, Game.com, etc) failed to do. SURVIVE in a market that is OWNED by Nintendo. And you say it's still to expensive... $170? Compared to $130... It's not that much more. Not to mention the rumor is that they are going to announce a redesign and drop the price again. The PSP has sold more world wide already in it's 2+ years than the original Xbox sold in it's lifetime. Do you think MS would consider the Xbox a failure. No way. Would they have liked it to do better... sure, but it was definitely not a failure.
| RivaOni wrote: | By doing this, Sony are only doing what SEGA tried to do with the Genesis/Mega Drive, by releasing bolt-ons to try and extend the systems life.
Whens the next big PS2 game out? Wasn't God of War supposed to be the final one? (Aside from Rogue Galaxy over here which isn't exactly a mainstream game). |
Well Odin Sphere and Grim Grimore recently came out.
Again, they aren't trying to extend the life. They will keep the PS2 around for 10 years regardless. That has always been their goal. What's coming out next? Honestly I have no idea. Right now, the release lineup could look a lot like the PS1 did at this stage... just reoccurring sports titles. That's the idea though. Doing something like this. They open up the door for third parties to bring Wii games to the PS2. Creating more titles so that the release schedule doesn't look dry. This is a smart BUSINESS move by Sony.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Shino, sometimes your Sony bias blinds you, Sony don't just see the Wii as a rival to the PS2, its "stealing" the market they assumed they'd control this generation too, despite a lack of software. |
Bias? Are you F'in nuts. How many times have I said that I defend Sony b/c no one else will. Look at all the people in this thread hating on Sony! I jump to Nintendo's defense just as fast when people like Gaaz starts dissing on it. Is your Sony hate blinding you? I have always owned all the systems. That is the ONLY way you can truly be a gamer without bias!
The success of the Wii was never a question. I've stated SEVERAL times that I think Nintendo is going to with this Generation and I welcome that. I have also stated that I thought Sony had its large company head up its ass when it came to the price of the PS3, etc. But they have shown signs of correcting their mistakes. I'm still hoping to hear an announcement of a pricedrop next week at E3. Either way, it will come by the end of the year.
| RivaOni wrote: | | As things stand though, The Ps3 is far too expensive and is hugely under supported, I read something the other day about SQUEENIX considering stopping development on future PS3 titles if the user base hasn't grown considerably by the time they release FFXIII, and lots of other companies have increased their Wii developments by figures of 50% and upwards. |
Did you happen to see the games I listed on the "What are you looking forward to" thread? There are a TON of games coming out Fall to the end of the year. There's significantly more games on the PS3 between now and the end of the year that I want than any other system. and if you haven't heard of those games, you should go check them out, b/c they are freaking amazing. Combine that with a price drop, and they WILL sell systems. Not to mention that just the release of FFXIII alone will sell I would say around a million units by itself easy!
And of course developers are increasing Wii support. If you were in their shoes, wouldn't you. A system that has sold 8.6 Million units in 7 months and has NO INDICATION of slowing down. You would have to be a complete idiot NOT to want your products on that type of hardware.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Recently in Japan, Eternal Sonata outsold Ninja Gaiden on PS3, thats a huge coup for the 360. |
Wait... An Japanese RPG outsold an action game that was originally made for the Xbox in Japan. Oh there's a surprise. 
I'm pretty sure Eternal Sonata is going to come out for PS3 too. That's what I've heard anyway.
| RivaOni wrote: | | So when you look at all of this, annd then look at Sony's actions, they're becoming increasingly desperate to even get some kind of foothold back on the market they've had control of since the mid 1990s. |
When I look at all of this... I still see the same thing. This is more about making the library of the PS2 more attractive so that it is easier for them to support their 10 year life span. Does it have NOTHING to do with the PS3? No... I'm sure part of the reason for doing this would be PS3 sales. But I doubt it was a huge factor when you consider the possibility of a price drop and a HUGE September for PS3. |
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RivaOni
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
| Shino wrote: |
Wow... Riva... are you kidding me man. I thought you knew me a LOT better than that.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Besides, consumers aren't as stupid as they appear, they know the Wii did this first, regardless of any patents Sony took out at any point in time, the point of the matter is Nintendo released the device first, they announced the control method well over a year ago now and Sony are desperate to try and get some of their flagging customer base back by any means nessacary. |
What are you talking about? Of course customers THINK that Nintendo did it first. But what about those that didn't jump onto a console yet this gen. They still have that PS2 sitting at home. Well if some of the games that 3rd parties are making on the Wii are coming to PS2 as well with an add on that's a hell of a lot cheaper than going out and buying a Wii, which direction do you think they are going to go. Sony has always said that they plan to stick to a 10 year life span of their system. They did it with the PS1. Problem is that the PS1 game library for those last 3 years was weak. This is Sony using an idea (WHICH EVERY COMPANY DOES SO DON'T PULL THAT COPYING SHIT OUT) to create an opportunity to bring a better final library for the PS2. |
No where did I state they were copying, as you pointed out,t hey've had patents on similar technology for a fair while, the CCG style device they displayed at E3 '05 was impressive, and they put out the eye toy.
My point is, as far as the PS2 was concerened, for first party releases, all thats been known about for absolutely ages now, was God of War 2, what else have they mentioned? Nothing. That reaks to me of "doing what we did with the PS1" which they personally supported for longer after the PS2's launch than they currently have with the PS2 during the PS3's era
| RivaOni wrote: | | Thats desperation on their part, they're trying to keep the PS2 alive because the PS3 is struggling so much and the PSP has been a technical failure (I recently bought one and like it but it doesn't have the mainstream appeal that Nintendo have managed with the DS, plus its still too expensive). |
| Quote: | | No Riva, Sony isn't trying to keep the PS2 alive b/c the PS3 is struggling... they are doing it b/c THEY PROMISED THEY WOULD! 10 year life span. They have said it since the PS1 days! And how in the hell is the PSP a failure. First. The PSP has done something that many (Sega, NEC, Neo-Geo, Wonderswan, Game.com, etc) failed to do. SURVIVE in a market that is OWNED by Nintendo. And you say it's still to expensive... $170? Compared to $130... It's not that much more. Not to mention the rumor is that they are going to announce a redesign and drop the price again. The PSP has sold more world wide already in it's 2+ years than the original Xbox sold in it's lifetime. Do you think MS would consider the Xbox a failure. No way. Would they have liked it to do better... sure, but it was definitely not a failure. |
I paid £150 for mine, with one game in a bundle that wasn't an official pack, that came without a memory stick, so throw in another £30 for a stick (if your buying from the same store I got the PSP from) and thats £180, whats thats $360? I paid £100 for my DS Lite with a game, so $200, thats a big big difference in my book in terms of price. The PSP software very rarely makes a dent on the chart sales, and the hardware is only really selling because so many people want in on the homebrew for the system.
The XBox didn't do well commercially. Why? its exclusives were pretty much the same games, and the majority of its titles were multiformat, it had nothing of interest to the Japanese besides a handful of titles, of course the PSP would of outsold the XBox, and of course Microsoft don't see the original XBox as a failure, they see it as a step on the bottom rung of the ladder which lead to the 360.
| RivaOni wrote: | By doing this, Sony are only doing what SEGA tried to do with the Genesis/Mega Drive, by releasing bolt-ons to try and extend the systems life.
Whens the next big PS2 game out? Wasn't God of War supposed to be the final one? (Aside from Rogue Galaxy over here which isn't exactly a mainstream game). |
| Quote: | Well Odin Sphere and Grim Grimore recently came out.
Again, they aren't trying to extend the life. They will keep the PS2 around for 10 years regardless. That has always been their goal. What's coming out next? Honestly I have no idea. Right now, the release lineup could look a lot like the PS1 did at this stage... just reoccurring sports titles. That's the idea though. Doing something like this. They open up the door for third parties to bring Wii games to the PS2. Creating more titles so that the release schedule doesn't look dry. This is a smart BUSINESS move by Sony. |
Those two games appear no where on EU release lists, I'm not saying thats unimportant, but once again, Europe is getting overlooked, and Phil Harrisons speech about "Europe being the most important continent" is still a load of horse crap.
As for the whole 10 years business, it maybe so, and I'm not saying you're wrong there, but what did the PS1 become at the end of its lifespan to the general consumer? a joke thats what because no developers saw money in it, theres more money to be had by releasing small developer titles on the likes of WiiWare, XBLA and PSN than there is a last gen machine.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Shino, sometimes your Sony bias blinds you, Sony don't just see the Wii as a rival to the PS2, its "stealing" the market they assumed they'd control this generation too, despite a lack of software. |
| Quote: | Bias? Are you F'in nuts. How many times have I said that I defend Sony b/c no one else will. Look at all the people in this thread hating on Sony! I jump to Nintendo's defense just as fast when people like Gaaz starts dissing on it. Is your Sony hate blinding you? I have always owned all the systems. That is the ONLY way you can truly be a gamer without bias!
The success of the Wii was never a question. I've stated SEVERAL times that I think Nintendo is going to with this Generation and I welcome that. I have also stated that I thought Sony had its large company head up its ass when it came to the price of the PS3, etc. But they have shown signs of correcting their mistakes. I'm still hoping to hear an announcement of a pricedrop next week at E3. Either way, it will come by the end of the year. |
Fair enough, you got me, I was trying to get your goat with that one, to see if someone was paying attention  and no, I have no Sony hate, I'm annoyed at their ego coming into this generation, but if you've noticed other threads, I'm pretty much sceptical about most things gaming. Nintendo's lack of games on the Wii (or anything that doesn't resemble a party title or what have you), the DS' lack of "proper" emersive games, games you can't drag yourself away from (and no one say Pokemon, thats the same damn game it was last time round, with another bag full of creatures to collect and from what I've heard a buggy online system), the 360 has major hardware issues, none that I've experienced yet thankfully, and its still too "Western" to make too much of a dent on the Japanese market.
| RivaOni wrote: | | As things stand though, The Ps3 is far too expensive and is hugely under supported, I read something the other day about SQUEENIX considering stopping development on future PS3 titles if the user base hasn't grown considerably by the time they release FFXIII, and lots of other companies have increased their Wii developments by figures of 50% and upwards. |
| Quote: | Did you happen to see the games I listed on the "What are you looking forward to" thread? There are a TON of games coming out Fall to the end of the year. There's significantly more games on the PS3 between now and the end of the year that I want than any other system. and if you haven't heard of those games, you should go check them out, b/c they are freaking amazing. Combine that with a price drop, and they WILL sell systems. Not to mention that just the release of FFXIII alone will sell I would say around a million units by itself easy!
And of course developers are increasing Wii support. If you were in their shoes, wouldn't you. A system that has sold 8.6 Million units in 7 months and has NO INDICATION of slowing down. You would have to be a complete idiot NOT to want your products on that type of hardware. |
Yes I've seen those games, but the sheer fact is, Sony are bleeding third party exclusives all over the place at the moment. Kojima has said he want's to develop for the 360, and MGS has a history of spreading to other platforms eventually (MGS3 aside, mind you MGS: PO is an extension of that onto the PSP, but still Sony exclusive)
As for developers upping Wii development, yes its bound to happen considering the sales of the hardware, but what you have to consider is that they've upped theyre Wii output so something has to go, and most signs are pointing to PS3 output at this point in time as dropping the 360 would be idiotic. Also, don't forget that the Gamecube had a fantastic start, but Nintendo didn't get enough third party exclusives on their side (something the Wii is seemingly lacking at this point in time, albeit its still in its infancy and its completely new technology), and they were too slow to release their first party titles so the hardware sales suffered and the third parties lost interest.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Recently in Japan, Eternal Sonata outsold Ninja Gaiden on PS3, thats a huge coup for the 360. |
| Quote: | Wait... An Japanese RPG outsold an action game that was originally made for the Xbox in Japan. Oh there's a surprise.
I'm pretty sure Eternal Sonata is going to come out for PS3 too. That's what I've heard anyway.[/uote]
Eternal Sonata may be a Japanese RPG, but so is Blue Dragon and that didn't do too well in the charts, plus Ninja Gaiden is pretty popular in Japan too. Yes, I'm pretty sure Eternal Sonata is due to come out on PS3, but thats in the future.
[quote="RivaOni"]So when you look at all of this, annd then look at Sony's actions, they're becoming increasingly desperate to even get some kind of foothold back on the market they've had control of since the mid 1990s. |
| Quote: | | When I look at all of this... I still see the same thing. This is more about making the library of the PS2 more attractive so that it is easier for them to support their 10 year life span. Does it have NOTHING to do with the PS3? No... I'm sure part of the reason for doing this would be PS3 sales. But I doubt it was a huge factor when you consider the possibility of a price drop and a HUGE September for PS3. |
I still think it has everything to do with the PS3 sales, and the sales of the Wii. Why announce it now? 8.6 million units in 7 months is alot as you point out, thats alot more than the PS3 has shipped, so Sony, quite rightly, wants in on this market. The SIXAXIS won't work in the way the Wii controller does, s they want a new piece of hardware. again understandable, but I do believe that announcing this now, rather than hmm, 12 months ago, reeks of desperation. |
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Shino
Fade into this fantasy, caught in the web of time
Age: 49
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Joined: 15 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
| RivaOni wrote: | | No where did I state they were copying, as you pointed out,t hey've had patents on similar technology for a fair while, the CCG style device they displayed at E3 '05 was impressive, and they put out the eye toy. |
That comment wasn't directed at you... it was just a general statement.
| RivaOni wrote: | | My point is, as far as the PS2 was concerened, for first party releases, all thats been known about for absolutely ages now, was God of War 2, what else have they mentioned? Nothing. That reaks to me of "doing what we did with the PS1" which they personally supported for longer after the PS2's launch than they currently have with the PS2 during the PS3's era |
Well I agree that there aren't any known first party titles. At least I don't know any of them. But again, this could spark some in house PS2 development again.
| RivaOni wrote: | | I paid £150 for mine, with one game in a bundle that wasn't an official pack, that came without a memory stick, so throw in another £30 for a stick (if your buying from the same store I got the PSP from) and thats £180, whats thats $360? I paid £100 for my DS Lite with a game, so $200, thats a big big difference in my book in terms of price. The PSP software very rarely makes a dent on the chart sales, and the hardware is only really selling because so many people want in on the homebrew for the system. |
You'd be surprised how many games hit the charts. Not as many here, but for instance, Monster Hunter Freedom held the top spot when it came out in Japan. As did Monster Hunter Freedom 2. There's a good 10 or 11 titles that have sold over a million world wide. That's pretty good for being in Nintendo's house. That's all I'm saying. The PSP is not a failure. It's not doing as well as the DS, but honestly, did anyone REALLY expect it to?
| RivaOni wrote: | | Those two games appear no where on EU release lists, I'm not saying thats unimportant, but once again, Europe is getting overlooked, and Phil Harrisons speech about "Europe being the most important continent" is still a load of horse crap. |
Yeah I know the UK gets screwed out of a lot of stuff, but I have to say, if you see Odin Sphere, pick that one up!
| RivaOni wrote: | | As for the whole 10 years business, it maybe so, and I'm not saying you're wrong there, but what did the PS1 become at the end of its lifespan to the general consumer? a joke thats what because no developers saw money in it, theres more money to be had by releasing small developer titles on the likes of WiiWare, XBLA and PSN than there is a last gen machine. |
No argument there. But I think it's something they are trying to avoid. I'll be honest, I bought a PSone in it's final years. When they started shipping it with a screen. Yeah I was all over that one!
| RivaOni wrote: | | Fair enough, you got me, I was trying to get your goat with that one, to see if someone was paying attention and no, I have no Sony hate, I'm annoyed at their ego coming into this generation, but if you've noticed other threads, I'm pretty much sceptical about most things gaming. Nintendo's lack of games on the Wii (or anything that doesn't resemble a party title or what have you), the DS' lack of "proper" emersive games, games you can't drag yourself away from (and no one say Pokemon, thats the same damn game it was last time round, with another bag full of creatures to collect and from what I've heard a buggy online system), the 360 has major hardware issues, none that I've experienced yet thankfully, and its still too "Western" to make too much of a dent on the Japanese market. |
No arguing any of that. And yeah, their ego was through the roof. Everyone saw it. And I think they are getting better. CES was a prime example as was Sony's Gamers' day. They are moving in the right direction and I believe that they will recover. It may be a little too late, but I think in the end, it will be Nintendo winning this gen with a neck and neck race for 2nd between MS and Sony.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Yes I've seen those games, but the sheer fact is, Sony are bleeding third party exclusives all over the place at the moment. Kojima has said he want's to develop for the 360, and MGS has a history of spreading to other platforms eventually (MGS3 aside, mind you MGS: PO is an extension of that onto the PSP, but still Sony exclusive) |
All of that aside, I've heard that Sony has NEVER paid for an exclusive. I'm not sure if that's true or not. There is probably some other factor besides cash that they use to get them, but yeah, some of them are gone. But in reality, what is being said is true, it is hard to justify putting a game on just one platform with the steadily increasing development costs. I mean Killzone 2 is a team of 120 developers and is costing over $20 million! It's going to be hard to recoup that just selling on the PS3.
| RivaOni wrote: | | As for developers upping Wii development, yes its bound to happen considering the sales of the hardware, but what you have to consider is that they've upped theyre Wii output so something has to go, and most signs are pointing to PS3 output at this point in time as dropping the 360 would be idiotic. Also, don't forget that the Gamecube had a fantastic start, but Nintendo didn't get enough third party exclusives on their side (something the Wii is seemingly lacking at this point in time, albeit its still in its infancy and its completely new technology), and they were too slow to release their first party titles so the hardware sales suffered and the third parties lost interest. |
Well in reality, most 3rd party games on 360 are coming for PS3 and vice versa now. So the same teams will be working on those in most cases, and there will be separate teams working on Wii stuff. And really... how man GOOD Wii titles have we seen so far from 3rd parties.
| RivaOni wrote: | | Eternal Sonata may be a Japanese RPG, but so is Blue Dragon and that didn't do too well in the charts, plus Ninja Gaiden is pretty popular in Japan too. Yes, I'm pretty sure Eternal Sonata is due to come out on PS3, but thats in the future. |
The Japanese love their RPGs. Blue Dragon was pretty popular for a 360 game, it sold 30-40K in it's first week. I'm not sure how ES has done, but chances are a lot of those are people who bought a 360 for Blue Dragon. And honestly.. Ninja Gaiden is not that big in Japan. Considering it came out only on Xbox and that sold miserably in Japan. The 360 has already almost matched the Xbox sales totals.
| RivaOni wrote: | | I still think it has everything to do with the PS3 sales, and the sales of the Wii. Why announce it now? 8.6 million units in 7 months is alot as you point out, thats alot more than the PS3 has shipped, so Sony, quite rightly, wants in on this market. The SIXAXIS won't work in the way the Wii controller does, s they want a new piece of hardware. again understandable, but I do believe that announcing this now, rather than hmm, 12 months ago, reeks of desperation. |
And that's fine. It can be viewed either way really. I think it's a good idea and the time could have been working out bugs. The fact that they waited more shows me that they weren't sure that the tech would work for the consumer. Now they see it does so yeah... they want in. |
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RivaOni
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
Ninja Gaidens not an new series though, it dates back to the NES days and maybe its not hugely popular, but JRPG's not developed by Square-Enix aren't hugely popular in Japan either...
In fact the only none Square-Enix series thats popular over there is the Shin Megami Tensei series (which is a fantastic series of games that any rpg fans hold give a go!) |
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Shino
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
| RivaOni wrote: | Ninja Gaidens not an new series though, it dates back to the NES days and maybe its not hugely popular, but JRPG's not developed by Square-Enix aren't hugely popular in Japan either...
In fact the only none Square-Enix series thats popular over there is the Shin Megami Tensei series (which is a fantastic series of games that any rpg fans hold give a go!) |
Yeah the older NGs may be popular... but the new version wasn't. Tecmo isn't viewed as highly in Japan as they used to be.... From what I can tell anyway.
Mistwalker is Squenix... or former members of. So Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey will give the 360 a little boost.
Eternal Sonata is by Namco. Another VERY popular brand in Japan.
So I'm really not surprised that it did well. |
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GAAZ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
You guys post too much.
Can we sum it up in like 10 words or less? |
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Shino
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
| GAAZ wrote: | You guys post too much.
Can we sum it up in like 10 words or less? |
Sure.
We disagree on some points but respect each other's opinions. |
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RivaOni
Full English!
Age: 41
Gender:
Joined: 24 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
| GAAZ wrote: | You guys post too much.
Can we sum it up in like 10 words or less? |
Thats what makes us so valuable, we debate stuff, we'll even "debate" over the colour of toilet paper (before its used) |
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Level 8 |
EXP: 6250
HP: 2275
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STR: 895
END: 690
ACC: 810
AGI: 805
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Blue Beam Saber (Sabers)
(325 - 385) |
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Razer
4934 5157 5662 5658
Gender:
Joined: 07 Oct 2002 |
| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
Well honestly, if we all agreed all the time it'd be pretty boring. Conversation stimulates debate which stimulates intelligence...well, most of the time. |
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Wins 91 - Losses 107
Level 15 |
EXP: 9225
HP: 2217
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STR: 443
END: 887
ACC: 1315
AGI: 1255
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Me Trusty Axe (Axe)
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RivaOni
Full English!
Age: 41
Gender:
Joined: 24 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
It does however take about half an hour to scroll through the debate between Shino and I.......... so glad for that "Back to top" link! |
_________________
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Wins 27 - Losses 14
Level 8 |
EXP: 6250
HP: 2275
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STR: 895
END: 690
ACC: 810
AGI: 805
|
Blue Beam Saber (Sabers)
(325 - 385) |
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